Ini adalah sumpah setia dalam kelompok keagamaan tertentu. Tolong simak baik-baik dan hati-hatilah terhadap serigala berbulu domba. Superior My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among the Protestants, generally to be a Protestant; and obtaining their confidence to seek even to preach from their pulpits and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and to descend so low as to become a Jew among the Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope. Terjemahan bebas saya Pimpinan Anak-ku, sejauh ini engkau telah diajarkan untuk bertindak sebagai seorang munafik: di antara penganut Katolik Roma menjadi Katolik Roma, dan memata-matai mereka yang bahkan yang masuk saudaramu; untuk tidak mempercayai siapapun. Di antara para Pembaharu menjadi seperti Pembaharu; di antara kaum Huguenots, menjadi seperti Huguenot; di antara Calvinists, menjadi seperti Calvinist; di antara Protestan, pada umumnya menjadi seperti Protestan; dan mencoba mendapatkan kepercayaan mereka sehingga bisa berkhotbah dari mimbar mereka dan dengan keras menentang Agama Suci kita serta Sri Paus; dan turun serendah-rendahnya sehingga menjadi orang Yahudi di antara orang Yahudi, sehingga dengan demikian engkau mampu mengumpulkan semua informasi untuk Ordomu sebagai tentara Paus yang setia. sumber: http://www.thenazareneway.com/society_of_jesus_jesuits.htm
 | Please, man...I think at a certain point this kind of vow is allowed especially within their own community. It is good, though, to know. I now already at a point where religious differences are allowed by God for people to search for Him more and more. So, let us pray that everyone will in the end find Jesus and let Him be the King in everyone's hearts.
Peace be with you, my friend.
~Marvel |
 | My friend, When I posted that, it was not my intention to change them whatsoever. I simply cannot. Only the Lord can do such.
Of course they have the freedom to do anything that they want. Just like any other religions which have any right to anything they want. But to think what they do as something right or allowed let alone regard these fools as Christian? No way! It does not mean that I am immune to such things as hypocrisy. I am a fallen individual and at times I fall. Nevertheless, it does not mean that such things to which I fall into are right. What do you think?
Regards in the Lord
OJS |
| No, we don't have to agree with them. I agree with you. We can say that something like that is not right according to our beliefs and views. I just want to bring out some awareness of you, so that you will not slipped into the same hole as they are now. As you know, I once had an experience involving myself into, well, you know what I am talking about. After some time I realized that I became more and more like them, filled with angers and hates. And this situation is killing the Love inside me. At the moment, I am recovering myself, although, it is not as perfect as before, but, I am pretty happy that our Lord Jesus still loves me and protects me.
So, anyway, I know that you know what to do...just watch your steps.
In Christ,
~Marvel
|
| Thanks for the reminder my friend. I understand your concern. But there seems to be a problem with one of your statements namely: "We can say that something like that is not right according to our beliefs and views". Your assumption here is that there is no universal standard to judge, which I would disagree. Instead saying what you wrote, I would say "..something like that is not right.."
In Christ,
OJS
Btw, ada OL sekarang ko? |
| It is just a realization that many times we face the fact that people just don't want to make themselves believe or understand. That's why I said that. Universal truth are there whether people believe it or not. But, when it comes to practice another truth comes to surface which is many just don't want to make themselves believe the universal truth. It is a reality.
In Christ,
~Marvel
|
| Points understood. Nevertheless, I don't think it is prudent enough to say things like what you wrote and I quoted because the impression other people get from such a statement is that we do not believe that there is a universal criteria do judge.
I mean rather than bowing down to accommodate the stupidity of the people, we must proclaim the truth.
In Christ
OJS |
| There is just an understanding that I got that we just cannot save everyone due to our humanly limitations. It is good to always voice the truth, but, better to realize that at some points people don't want to listen anymore, so, we can also go on with our lives to keep on voicing the truth to others. This is the right time for us to also letting God do something, probably talking to him/her during his/her silent moment or many others that we don't know. One thing for sure, He is able and He wants us also do things in our shoes and not trying wear His shoes.
I think, God wants us to always maintain peace with our brothers and sisters. Meaning, when we talk to them, we persuade them and not hardly arguing them. Persuading doesn't necessarily mean bowing, but, even stronger, it has a more sustainable effect. Please, consider this, kawan...:)
In Christ,
~Marvel |
| Please, keep in mind that God (will) never force people to believe in Him or to follow him. It depends on the acceptation of the people to His out-reached arms. I'm just afraid that for some characters, the "so loudly proclaiming style" will send them even farther from God. Like a turtle, people tend to be defensive when you knock on their safe house so hard. Meaning, for some other characters, they like the style too. So, be sensitive to this is the best. Be sensitive but brave.
In Christ,
~Marvel |
|  Ini adalah sumpah setia dalam kelompok keagamaan tertentu. Tolong simak baik-baik dan hati-hatilah terhadap serigala berbulu domba.
Superior
My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among the Protestants, generally to be a Protestant; and obtaining their confidence to seek even to preach from their pulpits and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and to descend so low as to become a Jew among the Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.
Terjemahan bebas saya
Pimpinan
Anak-ku, sejauh ini engkau telah diajarkan untuk bertindak sebagai seorang munafik: di antara penganut Katolik Roma menjadi Katolik Roma, dan memata-matai mereka yang bahkan yang masuk saudaramu; untuk tidak mempercayai siapapun. Di antara para Pembaharu menjadi seperti Pembaharu; di antara kaum Huguenots, menjadi seperti Huguenot; di antara Calvinists, menjadi seperti Calvinist; di antara Protestan, pada umumnya menjadi seperti Protestan; dan mencoba mendapatkan kepercayaan mereka sehingga bisa berkhotbah dari mimbar mereka dan dengan keras menentang Agama Suci kita serta Sri Paus; dan turun serendah-rendahnya sehingga menjadi orang Yahudi di antara orang Yahudi, sehingga dengan demikian engkau mampu mengumpulkan semua informasi untuk Ordomu sebagai tentara Paus yang setia.
sumber: http://www.thenazareneway.com/society_of_jesus_jesuits.htm
 My assumption was your message is for public and there is a possibility that some catholics are also in your list of friends. And probably they will not feel comfortable and shut themselves up from you, which in the end is going to make it more difficult for you to reach them with the truth. |
| The problem is; can I call those who worship things other than God brothers and sisters? Especially those who wants to be called Christian but do not believe the very thing taught in the Bible. I clearly cannot. Everyone is our brother/sister. They all are human, God's creation. Everyone has the same chance before God as the salvation thing is God's prerogative right. As a believer, we know that we will be with Him, but, that's it, we cannot go further to say that others will not be with God as God is not saving those who call out God, God...but, those who are doing things according to His will. This is then the most complicated thing come up, i.e. the so-called "non-believers" also have the same chance to be with God later. God said in the Bible, "Remember, whomever does good things comes from Good as God is good."
Based on an understanding that human life is dynamic, I want to see that everyone is possible to get close to God, especially when they want to open their hearts to Him. That's why I feel a little bit afraid that we can become an obstacle to them when our statement is seen unfriendly and becomes a reason for them to move away.
Their life is their responsibility, but, don't you feel bad if somebody decided to hate God just because of us?
Anyway, maybe, I'm a little bit too afraid to this case.
GBU,
~Marvel |
| Sorry for becoming too afraid to the impacts of what you have presented to others. Above all, I agree with you that actually they cannot have such plans. |
Comment deleted at the request of the author.
Comment deleted at the request of the author.
Comment deleted at the request of the author.
| Another verse pop up into my mind. This verse is the favorite of Prof. Sahetapy: "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?" Galatian 4 : 16
OJS |
| Yes, those who are saved are chosen by God himself and not by us as humans. Meaning, we cannot yell at people (or use threats and the like) and force them to follow God, cause, God will not approve this kind of movement too. In Philipians 4:8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
It is also written in Rome :
12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Clearly, we have to say yes to yes and no to no, but, we have to always put in mind that live in peace with others are also a must. That's why Jesus said that we have to be as pure as a "dove" but also as smart (NOT licik or culas) as a "snake". The way that we are communicating our thoughts are the thing that has to be put under our close watch. This is to avoid wrong perceptions of others toward the message that we want to share.
Stay in peace, man!
~Marvel |
| I understand that people's acceptation to the message that we send to them is also got influence from their personal characters. Some may understand you easily, some others may not. That's why I said, I am afraid. |
| I don't understand here. So can you please make clarification?
1. I don't say that they will not be with the Lord. what I said was that I cannot call those who do not believe as brothers and sisters [in the Lord]. Only when it is clear that they are believers, then I call them brothers or sisters in the Lord. Do I answer your concern?
2. When you wrote "not saving those who call out God, God...but, those who are doing things according to His will" is it your understanding that God will save those because they do good work? or what do you mean here?. 1. Its' your prerogative to do so, man.
2. What I mean is faith and good deeds are always walk hand-in-hand. People cannot say that they are believers unless their life is reflecting so. If some non-christians decided to not believe in Jesus but doing good things in Jesus' eye all of their life, will they also be saved? Let's leave the judgment with God alone. One thing I understand is no-one can refuse Jesus if he/her is living life similar to Jesus' teachings. It is His teachings that people have to focus on, so that they can have that "candle" lightening their paths. If somebody say, "I don't believe in Jesus", does he/she really know His teachings?
Most of the time, people on this world refuse to start arguments about Jesus' teachings. But, they are surely more than happy to start arguments about whether Jesus is God or not. The thing is you can only find Jesus as God when you understand His teachings. That's why many are trapped in endless discussions about Jesus Holiness. |
| I understand that some people were simply misled by their blind and twisted leaders. But these people needs to be shocked as well. That's why I call them the way they are. So that at the end of time, they have no excuses not hearing the truth. This is what I say as some may be able to understand you, but, some might not be able to understand you. So, I think, now, your way is only for some, but, in other days, you will also use other ways for the some others. That's life, man...I don't oppose you on this point. |
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